Must Read: Catholics Must Get Up and Walk Out of the Church Forever
Commentary from Bill Maher.
Stop reading now if you can’t handle Maher’s brand of honesty/humor/barroom language.
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New Rule: Catholics Must Get Up Out of the Pew and Walk Out of the Church Forever |
When Barack Obama didn’t hear Reverend Wright say those awful things about America, he still should have rushed the stage, smite Reverend Wright with the cross, and left the church. If there’s anything the right wing can agree on, it’s that. And that gays are going hell, right after they suck them off in the airport bathroom.
But it raises an obvious question, one that I haven’t heard asked, which is strange because it’s so obvious: If you leave a church when the head of the church says bad things about America, what do you do when your church hierarchy is caught up in a systematic and decades-long sex abuse scandal? And did I mention the people being sexually abused were children? Hundreds of them?
How about when the head of that church, or Pope, associated with and promoted members of the clergy who not only facilitated the sexual abuse and rape of hundreds and hundreds of children, but engaged in a decades-long cover-up of those crimes?
Reverend Wright associated with Farrakhan. The Pope works with Cardinal Law. Which is worse? Isn’t it the man who shuffled “priests” like Shanley and Geoghan and many others from parish to parish with the full knowledge of their crimes, and then claimed he had no idea?
Yes, by Sean Hannity’s own logic, Catholics like him, en masse, would be expected to abandon their church. Which shouldn’t be a problem, because they worship Reagan anyway.
COLMES: Then shouldn’t John McCain say he doesn’t support the views of a man who makes anti-Catholic statements?
OBENSHAIN: He did, I believe. He said I’m not–I don’t agree with everything — a
COLMES: And Obama says he does not support anti-Semitism, as expressed by Louis Farrakhan.
HANNITY: Leave the church.
Well, what about it, Sean? Shouldn’t you leave your church? I mean, like, five years ago?
And since you haven’t, how do we know you’re not also a secret child fucker? Again, just using your logic:
HANNITY: …What if he really deep down in his heart thinks like Pastor Wright?
LUNTZ: It’s not for anyone to answer that question.
HANNITY: Well, is that dangerous for this country? I think that would be dangerous. That would mean we would have — if he agreed with Wright, and I don’t know that he does, but if he did, that would mean a racist and an anti-Semite would be president of the United States.
Side note: Does it occur to anyone that, for the past five years, the nuts every politician has been busy distancing themselves from–Reverend Wright, Reverend Falwell, Reverend Hagee, Reverend Haggard, Reverend Robertson–are all, you know, reverends?
Why don’t we just go back to the days when politicians kept their religions to themselves? Wasn’t that better?
45 Responses to “Must Read: Catholics Must Get Up and Walk Out of the Church Forever”
March 30, 2008 at 10:26 pm
To disagree, protest or stand up is not in the cards for Roman Catholics. Clerical policy is “Do as I say, not as I do.” One gets “hammered” if they do. It is a sorry situation.
March 30, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Maher is not only correct but states it honestly. When does Conscience finally kick in?
March 31, 2008 at 12:36 am
For me it did three or four years ago, and I voted with my feet. Maybe Maher is being a little facietious here, but there are plenty of Catholics who have agreed totally with that line of reasoning, and didn’t have to wait around for him to say it. Of course it’s a matter of conscience for each individual. but I just could not take it anymore. The behavior of our local Bishop. in particular, was the straw that broke the camel’s back. He had no conception of the line between Church and State.
March 31, 2008 at 12:40 am
I will be asking Senator Susan Collins of Maine the same question (she is Catholic).
March 31, 2008 at 12:49 am
Yes, Catholics should leave the church and go to a church that worships Christ..not the
church…This is evident throughout the whole organization. This is in addition to the sex
problems throughout..cover up, lieing, hiding assets etc. from the Pope on down. It is far worse
than anything Rev. Wright said or did. Yes, Catholics should not just leave the church …they should “run” as fast as they can and not look back. Spiritually, it is the healthiest thing to do. Why does
it take so long for intelligent people to realize this?? God is bigger than any one denomination.
It isn’t the organizational church anyway…it is your individual relationship with Christ/God.
March 31, 2008 at 1:11 am
Frank, For years, I have appreciated Bill Maher’s wit and insight and continue to do so. Unfortunately, the guys with the pointed hats, with their stranglehold on Wisdom, have yet to figure out that one learns much more from one’s “enemies” than from one’s “friends,” especially when friends are mostly sycophants and assorted ring-kissers. Otherwise, our bishops could learn more about what is good and bad about this Church from two hours of serious listening to a Bill Maher than from two years of their in-bred, secretive meetings. But, they would not listen. Church has supplanted Jesus. Jesus has become the excuse rather than the Truth, Life, and Way for this increasingly sick institution. The love Jesus proclaimed has become, for the Church, merely another four letter word. The four letter words Maher and others use are substantially less offensive than the Church’s “love” — which has become blasphemous.
March 31, 2008 at 1:18 am
Enough is enough. (borrowed from Senator Obama). Catholics look the other way while the leaders of the Church, deny, excuse, ignore and in effect, condone the sexual abuse of children. The people of the United States deny, excuse , ignore, rationalize, and in effect, condone the erosion of freedom, the abuse of power, the mistreatment of human beings in the name of “security” and the “war on terror” by George Bush and his cronies.
It is time for all of us to stand up and take a risk, a chance, and do the right thing. Power does not make right. Sure, you will be called name… “anti-Catholic”, unpatriotic…. you know the drill. Jesus was called much worse because he spoke the truth to the corrupt powers of His time.
Should we all do the same?
March 31, 2008 at 1:22 am
In November 2001 I had a “flashback” to my abuse in August 1970 (9 months prior to ordination.) In January 2002 I contacted Boston (“cardinal” Law) — took him 5 months to see me! In November 2005 I resolved in conscience that I could no longer represent these members of the hierarchy who were more concerned with their checkbooks than they were of pastoral care of the souls harmed by sexual abuse. In April 2005 I announced at Mass in the hospital chapel where I had been assigned for seven years that I was leaving — and I spelled out “why.” Within hours I was “reported to the Archdiocese of Washington and the next morning I was informed that my faculties had been pulled. I was not longer allowed to minister in the Archdiocese. They never spoke with me. They never contacted Boston to see what the story was etc. My new ministry is to be a pain in the butt to Bishops!
March 31, 2008 at 1:43 am
I was a cradle Catholic born and reared in a small southern town surrounded by Protestant churches, very active and interested in Catholicism from the age of seven and was fortunate to never have experienced the horrors of clergy abuse – but that being said, I have left the RCC precisely because of the evils that have been perpetrated and perpetuated in screaming silence against the vulnerable and defenseless. The levels of deceit, double-speak, abuses and cover-ups, and misogyny that pervade the RCC hierarchy, the lack of lay inclusion in church governance, the dogmas of exclusion, the reversal of Vatican II progress, among other things, have forced me out the door. I have never believed in the Divine Right of Kings. I no longer believe in the Divine Right of Popes. The hypocrisies of the Vatican and most of the Princes of the Church ought to smell to high Heaven for they certainly reek down here.
March 31, 2008 at 1:57 am
Sorry but your analogy is wrong. The Catholic Church does not endorse child abuse. The behavior of abusive priests was in violation of Church teaching. Cardinal Law behaved badly and I agree that John Paul II should not have given him a position at the Vatican. The people who run the Catholic Church are human and make mistakes. There was some bad judgment and some lack of control with respect to the child abuse issue. The Catholic Church does not, however, preach hate and anti-semitism. On the contrary, they are in complete opposition to Catholic doctrine. I am sure that any sane Catholic who knew or seriously suspected that his priest was abusing children would quickly report him to the bishop or even police. Certainly he would not remain a member of a parish for over 20 years and continue to permit child abuse. Obama continues to SUPPORT an abusive pastor – a supporter of Louis Farahkan (“Judaism is a gutter religion/Hilter was a very great man”) and a general bigot – despite his knowledge of the man’s views. Not acceptable in my view.
March 31, 2008 at 2:04 am
How do people with a conscience stay in the Roman church? Seriously, I wish someone would tell me why they stay. Maher is so right. Hannity is outraged by Obama and he still writes checks to the supporters of systemic child abuse. How do Catholics keep supporting this? Jesus would never be part of this corruption
March 31, 2008 at 3:33 am
I was one of the many thousands of priests who bolted for the door when it became obvious after the second Vatican council, the reforms that we liberal Catholics had struggled for hundreds of years were going to be undone and the R.C. church was shifting into reverse.
Because I appreciate the many great Catholics in the pews and the lower clergy I continue to be interested in promoting reform, but from the outside, because you can’t do much within the structure before being threatened with being thrown out anyway. See how much more you can learn and publish about the church from MY vantage point at http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/, where you will learn that the pedophilia stuff is nothing compared to the REAL scandals.
You’ll probably want to help spread the word.
March 31, 2008 at 5:48 am
A few years ago, I voted with my feet, too. But I have many friends who stay, pay, pray and obey.
I miss my church friends. I miss the rituals. I miss having a faith community. I feel pretty isolated.
But I just couldn’t turn a blind eye anymore to the church’s willingness to hurt people, to the lies, to the hypocrisy. I couldn’t help but notice, for example, that when B16 (Ratzinger…ecch) was covered in the news recently for homilizing on compassion for the poor, they also reported that he himself was wearing Prada shoes during his homily.
And yet the highest rank Sr. Joan Chittester will probably ever attain in the church is the one she has right now.
March 31, 2008 at 9:44 am
Bolt from the Church? St. Thomas being the the great Christian humanist of his time could have done likewise. Most Church leadership of the time (c. 1530) was very corrupt. His king (Henry VIII) on that pretext bolted as well and had it arranged so his valid marriage to Queen Catherine was declared null by cowardly bishops. Instead St. Thomas and St. John Fisher and others stood firm – even with the corrupt behavior of the Holy Father. The result: they were murdered with the consent of their bishops and made martyrs to Jesus.
I absolutely hate it that Pope Benedict continues to give Cardinal Law and others sanctuary in the Vatican. I what believe he is doing something very evil . However, to bolt from the Church will never be an option for this orthodox Roman Catholic. I’d rather be like the prophet Jeremiah: stay and call everyone to repent.
The call in the early 16th century was: reform from head to foot.
The call of our time is: repent from head to foot.
One note on the political: I am boycotting this election: in my opinion there’ s no one running who’s qualified to hold office.
McCain and his party are bunch of plutocrats who care nothing but for the enrichment of a few and the carrying on of an unjust and evil war (in Iraq). They can do no good as the innocent blood children and the marginalized is their price. Their ilk are willing to shed that blood to have it their way.
Obama and Clinton and their party continue to support the murder of the most innocent and helpless among us: unborn children, the disabled and the dying. No matter what good they may do it will be tainted by shedding of innocent blood.
By the way -today is the anniversary of the murder of Terri Schiavo.
March 31, 2008 at 10:40 am
Well, look at what happened in Maryland.
Letters were read from the pulpit of every parish denouncing Assemblyman Eric Bromwell’s child abuse bill and Window legislation and letters went home in church bulletins. Parishioners were encourged to call their legislators and voice their opposition to the bill.
Untruths like “the church will go broke,” “parishes will close,” “programs will be curtailed,” etc., etc., were circulated by the Maryland Catholic Conference. Graduates and parents of Calvert Hall were encourged by the school president to harrass Eric Bromwell saying that the law would “hurt” the prep school’s reputation and enrollment.
In the end Bromwell withdrew the bill. The only thing missing from this sad story was any real pastoral concern for the adult victims of childhood sexual abuse – by anyone. Dioceses across the country are still playing legal hardball in courtrooms intent on not taking responsibility and being accountable for the past.
As far as Rev. Ray Dubuque’s mentioning of the “lower clergy” where the heck are they? We are praying for “priests of integrity” but when push comes to shove they simply aren’t there. When are they going to start opening their mouths in support of what must be done if the real church is to survive?
“The pedophilia stuff is nothing compared to the REAL scandals.” I ‘m sorry Ray, but I take “REAL” exception to such an insensitive statement. You are speaking of people here and the damage that has been done to their hearts, minds and souls. How dare you speak so cavalierly of “the pedophilia stuff.”
I’m really ashamed of you.
Sister Maureen Paul Turlish
Victims’ Advocate
New Castle, Delaware
maturlishmdsnd@yahoo.com
March 31, 2008 at 11:18 am
I don’t believe that analogy between Wright and criminal clerics like Law is apt. As far as I can tell Wright’s comments have revealed his ignorance and anger, but have not directly harmed anyone. Oh yes, words can have the power to do bad things, I suppose. There is no question, however, about the lifelong effects of sexual abuse. No comparison, in my opinion, between the two.
The only time I have set foot in a Catholic Church in the past ten years is for a funeral or a wedding. It wasn’t as much a reasoned or principled decision as it was a visceral reaction to what the institution and its rituals and symbols represent. In short, I can’t stomach them.
March 31, 2008 at 12:59 pm
In a previous post, a respondent evidently planned to “stay the course”. I say “Bravo”. And as the ship sinks into the murky waters of self-forgiveness for past and current crimes against the innocent, the respondent may rail against the masters of the ship for failure to change course, failure to listen, failure to institute reforms, failure to include, etc. I will take my chances against the sea with a compass, a good boat, and a trust in the Designer of All Things. If I drown, it will be my own doing. If the respondent drowns, how many others will be taken, also?
To effect a change, someone in authority has to actively listen and recognize his/her fallibility. Until another John XXIII comes along, there is no hope for reform from within the RCC. And the deck is stacked against another progressive visionary ever being accidentally promoted to Bishop of Rome. The respondent is defending the last great monolithic monarchy on this planet. Absolute power corrupts, etc. Just look at the Vatican for proof. The only thing the Bishop of Rome and the Princes of the Church will respond to is lack of income. They do not care that their attitudes and cover-ups have driven thinking Catholics to ex-communicate Rome from their lives. In fact, others have indicated that the revisionists’ plans are built upon shaving the numbers of the faithful down to a core constituency who will “Pray, Pay and Obey” without question. Perhaps there are those who want someone else to be in charge of their souls, so that if or when an accounting is rendered, they can always say “the ___________ (insert culprit name here) made me do it.” Yeah, , , , like that will hold water.
March 31, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Sister Maureen: [“The pedophilia stuff is nothing compared to the REAL scandals.” I ‘m sorry Ray, but I take “REAL” exception to such an insensitive statement. You are speaking of people here and the damage that has been done to their hearts, minds and souls. How dare you speak so cavalierly of “the pedophilia stuff.”
I’m really ashamed of you.]
Thank you Sister Maureen for standing up for us. I was hurt by that statement. Everyone has their own little squabbles with the Catholic church and feel that theirs is more important than others, but NOTHING compares to being manipulated, molested, and raped by a person in a position of trust! ESPECIALLY IN THE HOUSE OF GOD!!!!!!! And to top it off, for the hierarchy of the Catholic church to know about it for centuries and just sweep it under the rug and let it continue. No wonder the Muslim faith population has surpassed the Catholic church’s population in a recent study.
Reform of the Catholic church is going to have to start by abandoning the current Roman Catholic church and let the pope and his so called faithfull sit there and wonder what the hell happened to everybody. Rapture on earth from the Catholic church I call it. Have “good” priests and laypeople start using movie theaters or interfaith establishments as a place of gathering. Remember, the Bible says “when two or more come together in My Name, I am there with them”. Don’t need freakin’ big ass buildings with stain glass and priceless statues. The people are the body of Christ, not real estate, stocks and bonds, and hungry lawyers.
March 31, 2008 at 1:56 pm
The war in Viet Nam was wrong, and it was the United States that was resposible for this was even after we, the United States, had promised to support VietNam’s independence after their support for the Allies against Japan in WWII. In all that was taking place, I never thought of leaving the States and finding another “better” country to live in even thought I was/am a U.S. citizen. Why now, with all the sex abuse in the Catholic Church should I think of leaving the church? I think that something better is possible just as some of us thought about getting the U.S. out of VietNam. Why not change the Catholic Church for the better or sharing my thinking with others who want to change things for the better in the Catholic Church; lets come up with a better model than what we have at the moment? Abandoning the Church (or the policital process in the United States) is the easy way out, but abandoning can still leave the wrong in place, and then we become part of the problem. Lets be positive in our suggestions and bring about change for the better.Let us invite the hierarchy to join the lay in bringing about the better; if the hierarchy abstain, so be it. We can still tell them what our ideas are and where the money will come from for these changes. For what we do not like and for which the hierarchy have chosen not be part of in discussions, let us abstain in funding their ideas of which we were not involved in. childish idea? Maybe so; maybe not so. How do we stay involved actively in the Catholic Church while at the same time encourage the hierarchy to also be involved with the lay, if the hierarchy chooses not to join in celebrating this Resurrection? Besides complaining, how do we move forward together? Please be positive!
March 31, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Since many of us believe “We are the Church!” how do we leave who we are? I suggest we readjust our thinking and say we have left the “distortion.” The Roman Catholic Church has been morphed into an institution that is a stumbling block to living out our faith. When we talk about the thousands who have “left” in recent decades, we should realize they haven’t left their Catholicity, they simply have gone elsewhere to enable them to live it out.
March 31, 2008 at 2:57 pm
It is easy – and irresponsible! – for Bill to say simply leave. That may well salve his conscience, but it does nothing for the 1.2 billion Catholics who will still be there with benumbed consciences. Those of us who are outraged need to stay and fight for the souls, and bodies!, of the billions of Catholics in the present and future. To paraphrase one of Jesus’ teachers, Rabbi Hillel: If we don’t, who will?
Pax! Len Swidler
March 31, 2008 at 4:34 pm
I am writing this as a convert from Protestantism. Does everyone forget who is in the Taberncle, Jesus. The Protestants do not have the Eucharist, they do not believe that it is body, blood,soul and divinity of Jesus Christ as the Roman Cathoilc Church teaches. I will not leave Jesus. Rember people can be bad but the Church is perfect! The county where I live have trouble with teachers and finacncial people from the schools not thePriests from the Roman Catholic Churches here. The hurch is not So, any one that has been abused by any one should get the help thye need to go on with thier life. Before you start yelling at me please relise that there have been many people who have abused and you don’t know who any one is so don’t assume you know. All I am saying is that people are not abused just by Priests if you know the numbers that most have been abused by family members or family fiends or neihbors. let’s pray about this and get the hate out of our hearts and get them set on Jesus instead. God Bless!
March 31, 2008 at 6:44 pm
There is no need to go into a huge speech here. If people would only search the Scriptures, they would find these words: Come Ye out of her, and be a seperated people. Now by searching the Scriptures, you yourself would be able to find who Her is. Notice, Catholics don’t give you a Bible to study, but they do give you a catechism, and some prayer books. You are taught to pray to so called Saints that have been sainted by a pope who does not exist within the scriptures. Peter was a married man, and was Martyred for His beliefs. He told them to crucify him upside down, because he was not worthy to die like His Master. Catholics get blinded by all the pomp, and circumstance. I will close with this, but if you would like a teaching straight from the Scriptures, I will put one together, and show you by the Scriptures, who the Mother Whore really is. She has her tentacles into everything. Quit praying to Statutes, and put Jesus first in your lives. Quit Confessing to a man in a little booth, when Jesus told us that it was as simple as asking in his Name for forgiveness. If you want to prove me wrong, than I welcome the challenge. Its time for people to know not to be bound up by an institution. Whom The Son sets FREE is FREE indeed!!! Please, if you don’t believe what I have written, then do what the Scriptures say: Search the Scriptures, for in them you will find eternal life. Choose any way you like, but if Jesus Christ is not the Cornerstone, than you will be worshiping in vain. I would love to meet with all of you, when we get out of these corruptible bodies, and become uncorruptible. I am a sinner, saved by The Grace of God. The Papacy is a farce never instituted by Christ. Do you think God would give some mortal the right to add, and take away from what Jesus called sin. I beg you to don’t fall for it, but if you do, please don’t ever say you didn’t read this. We are judged by The Word of God. How many of us know Latin? What a concoction. Yep, just give them a Catechism, and a Prayer Book, and tell people about a non-existent Purgatory.Jesus died for our sins, He said that There was only one Mediator between Him, and God, The Man Jesus Christ. Another whole teaching, but if you can swallow this, maybe I will bring you more. Remember, I am a Sinner, saved only by The Grace of God which is sufficient.
March 31, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I agree with Robin that the Eucharist is the core of the Catholic faith and no matter how imperfect the clergy may be the Eucharist brings us closer than anything to Jesus while we are on earth. I am saddened by the Catholics on this website who miss this crucial point. I understand leaving a parish or feeling discouraged by some aspects of the institutional church however “bolting” just because you don’t get your way seems very immature. So why not look for a better priest, a better parish?
March 31, 2008 at 9:07 pm
It’s not about “Catholicism”, it’s about Christianity. Jesus never imagined an institution such as the Roman Catholic Church. The last supper didn’t occur in a temple- it took place on the second floor of an inn. I no longer consider myself a Roman Catholic- I like being a Christian, instead. I believe it’s more descriptive of my beliefs. The homosexual abuse crises (not “pedophilia’, in my book, because much of the abuse occurred with post-pubescent boys), and the Catholic Church’s response to it, was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. Christ would be horrified. I’ve begun my search and have found a church (The Three Village Church in Setauket, Long Island)that somewhat meets my needs, but I do miss Communion. I like breaking bread with my fellow parishioners.
March 31, 2008 at 11:15 pm
There is nothing to leave, condemn, nor protest. The Institution left us. We are the Eucharist. Christ lives within each of you. Our task is to diminish the EGO and allow the true spiritual self to mature through Love and Service. Read Richard Rohr or Eckhart Tolle in A New Earth. I find wonderful nourishment in nature, meditation, contemplation, serving the poor, hungry, and destitute. I find real challenges in loving my spouse on a daily basis. I watch my cat Sheba attain Zen quiet and my dog Rupert protect, defend, love & serve with unconditional love. What more is there?
The Hierarchy has Bishops, the Government has Politicians, and the Corporations have CEO’s who are all corrupt. Who cares when the Christ in us is loving, serving, healing, and forgiving!
March 31, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Who knows what sort of a Church Christ imagined? I can not say. I am sure, though, that when he instituted the Eucharist he intended that it be perpetual. If you miss communion, mclaughlin, maybe it is because you miss the essence of the faith.
April 1, 2008 at 12:11 am
We are not the Eucharit, that New Age thiunking and not what the Maisterium teaches. Jesus handed the keys to the Church here on earth to Peter our first Pope. Please don’t make a joke of the Catholic Church, I will be praying for you.
April 1, 2008 at 2:37 am
With all due respect to the faithful who do not, or cannot, entertain the notion of leaving the Roman Catholic Church, there is a great deal to be said in your favor. Some of the reasons offered appear to revolve around faith in the Eucharist. Some of the reasons revolve around the belief that a path to reform is possible with the Vatican hierarchy. Some have even compared leaving the RCC to choosing the leave the US over Viet Nam. Faith in the Eucharist, faith that there will be a path to reform within the current structure all are personal values and matters of faith that I no longer share. If one chooses to stay with the Roman Catholic Church as a matter of faith or with an eye towards future change and progress, I say “Good on ya’, mate!”
However, comparing leaving the RCC to leaving the United States during Viet Nam falls far short as a reason for staying. For one thing, the war in Viet Nam was controlled by elected officials who began to read the handwriting on the wall and in voting booths and backed out of the war rather than face an angry electorate. There is no such capacity in the Roman Catholic Church. The RCC is a monarchy, complete with princes of the realm who make decisions on behalf of 1.2 billion members across the world with NO DECISION-MAKING INPUT from the laity. None. Zero. So long as the Vatican maintains itself as a despotic monarchy, with belief in the Divine Right of the Pope, there is little chance for internal reform. The Vatican has demonstrated a desire to return to the thrilling days of yesteryear when the Pope wielded as much or more political, economic and military power as the most powerful secular kings.
As for engaging or inviting dialog with the Vatican, bon chance! There are numerous organizations who have been trying to negotiate and pursue changes that were instituted by Vatican II in the hopes of continuing the spirit of ecumenism and growth across all party lines, but because of Vatican revisionism, they have managed exactly zero progress. My brother is fond of saying that a leopard doesn’t change his spots. I don’t believe the disinterested Vatican monarchy can do so, either, without some major upheaval in the ranks to get their attention. Only, there is no mechanism for that, either.
April 1, 2008 at 2:46 am
To leave the Church would be an extremely foolish on my part. I don’t pretend to dictate to others or criticize the course on which their free will leads them, but I feel compelled to remind them as creatures of free will in this life—In The Church Militant—they act sat their own peril. Agreed, the priestly hierarchy, we are currently burdened with, has led us down a blind path.
Presently, less than 20% of all Catholics in Europe go to Mass on a regular basis. In Italy, it is only 30%, in France, only 20%. In Germany it is only 13%, and in Canada, it is 20%, but we Americans are the most devote. 43% of Americans go to mass on Sunday on a regular basis. However that is changing rapidly. There are over 3,000 parishes without a resident priest. In the next ten years that will double to over 6,000. It is estimated there will be only 200 students in the United States studying for the priesthood by 2020. We are getting priests from other countries, but eventually that will fail to fill the void as our old priests die and the need jumps tremendously. Where will they come from?
With the state of the priesthood today, what young man in his right mind would want to study for the priesthood in the climate that now surrounds the Church? With the disclosures and documented corruption in many seminaries, what father would stand by and let his son go into such a life?
It is more than pedophilia that has corrupted the Church; there is a general erosion of the moral fiber and laxity of the priesthood. And much of this can be traced back to Vatican II. It was not the enlightened dogma coming out of the council that was responsible for the abrupt changes, but the total ignorance of our Church leaders to realize the Holy Spirit had dictated a broadening of the Church’s path for the future. Instead, reactionary elements of the Church’s leadership raised doubts and eventually gained enough control to isolate and neutralize the decisions of Vatican II.
THE HOLY SPIRIT was with the council as it always has been with the Church. IT IS HIS RESPONSIBILITY. He has not reneged on that obligation to guide the Church. CHRIST promised the HOLY SPIRIT would be with it till the end of time. What is happening? Why has GOD permitted these terrible things to happen? For what reason my pitiful brain fails to comprehend, but one thing is certain, the Church is presently moving towards something that is terrible or something that is wonderful. The Holy Spirit will have his way IN HIS OWN TIME.
When I was a boy growing up in the late 40s and early 50s, everything in the church was in place and at peace. There were nuns everywhere. There was no such thing as a lay teacher in a catholic school. They were all nuns. For a young man to get into seminary, the parish priest and a board of review had to highly rate him. Many were turned away. But after Vatican II and the new freedom the religious experienced, many chose to leave the orders and the priesthood, which was probably for the best. Unfortunately, the bishops became frightened and instead of leaving their minds open to the voice of the HOLY SPIRIT and permit priest to marry if they chose and the possible ordination- of women, they closed their minds to any alternative and accepted any sort of person—no matter how unqualified—into the seminaries.
The HOLY SPIRIT knows where it is going with the Church, and ultimately, it will be to a better place. Most of us will not see this resolved in our lifetime. As Catholics we should not turn our backs on our faith or on JESUS CHRIST. I will stay in the Church, go to Mass on Sunday, and only give enough to meet my minimum obligation to support the Church and no more. And I will not miss an opportunity as long as I live to be an active thorn in the side of the hierarchy and their continued program of deceit. But I WILL NOT LEAVE THE CHURCH. If I obtain heaven, I will no longer have concern for the Church hierarchy, for though I must deal with them in this life, I will not be bothered with them in Paradise. They will not be there.
April 1, 2008 at 6:08 pm
I find it really discouraging that so many people responding on this site are willing to give the institution another chance and willing to believe that it is possible to work from within. I hope at least you all are withholding your money. Please, at least until there is some sign that the real change you are hoping for is actually happening.
My view is that the institution is rotten, no, not only rotten, but evil at its core. The core of the institution is its hierarchy. The closer one comes to that core, the more one runs the risk of being co-opted and corrupted by the evil. I have seen this happen with priests and laity attempting to “reform from within”.
I worked closely with two male survivors of horrendous clergy abuse as they tried to withstand the 2 to 5 year battle the RCC put them through before awarding them a very measly settlement. Both survivors were so beaten down by the process that the idea of legal redress (court hearings etc.) was too much for either of them to bear (exactly the point of the RCC’s mauling of them). Church lawyers did everything they could to prove that these survivors’ families were at fault, that the survivors’ psychological damage predated the abuse (even though for both the abuse started when they were 5 years old), that survivors were making it all up (this despite an abundance of proof to the contrary). There were endless meetings, endless painful gruelling interrogations (some lasting as long as 8 hours), and endless attempts to make survivors question themselves. It was psychological warfare and most times five or more lawyers against one survivor and his lawyer. I personally talked with two high-ranking officials of a religious order (one of the survivors was abused by two of its priests) begging them to take the high road and model for the rest of the RCC the way it should treat survivors. It was like talking to a wall. Honestly, I don’t understand how any of them can sleep at night.
In the end, it all comes down to money and saving face. Not to worry, however. Even should all of us leave, the RCC is, as we speak, cultivating a whole new group of eager, faith-needy replacements among Hispanics and other minority groups.
Yes, I am angry. I was frankly absolutely stunned by the RCC’s refusal to minister and insistence on re-abusing these two survivors. This kind of behavior, condoned and excused as it is by the RCC, is evil.
April 1, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Do you think that this only happens in the Catholic Church believe me it happen in others, Protestant, Jewish etc, why are you not calling for thier heads too? I believe ALL who have abused should be punished not just one group. I have said this before but this happens in the schools of the county where I live not the Catholic Church and believe me this was hidden or people have been beated down for deades. Let’s see all that abuse get punished not just the Church! If you don’t think it all comes down to money on all sides you are mistaken.
April 1, 2008 at 7:37 pm
And that’s an excuse, because it happens elsewhere??? My God, these were priests! These are Cardinals and bishops who shielded and protected them!!!
As far as I know there is no other Christian Church that claims its leader is Christ’s representative on Earth. The RCC set these standards, not me. So, I feel perfectly justified in holding the institution to the higher standards it claims for itself.
April 1, 2008 at 7:48 pm
No one and I mean no one should abuse another person unless you think it is okay that others do. I believe that most here don’t want find a solution they just want to gripe and take down the Church only then will they be happy. I know others that have been abused by people other than Priests , YOU TELL THEM IT WASN’T AS BAD AND TO STOP SNIVLING BECAUSE IT WASN’T A PRIEST! You should be ashamed of your self. I am praying for every one
here as you can’t see the forest for the trees! God Bless Pleas pray for all sides of people of abuse as Christians we are to pray for the good and the sinners!
April 1, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Oh and don’t forget the parents that hid it too. My folks not have let this happen if any one and I mean any one abused thier chidren were abused. Let’s stop it now and get help for the folks that have been abused so they can go on. Not so they are used again by other groups just to get thier causes done!
April 1, 2008 at 8:37 pm
I find the Shiela-Robin debate interesting. It reminds me of the nuns and the illogical complaint of their students: just because everybody does it doesn’t make it right. Instead of just grumbling why not take some positive action. Get your legislators to do away with the statute of limitations on child abuse. There is none for murder. Eliminate the SOL everywhere. This will be the best protection for children from all abusers regardless of the abusers background. There would be no one to hide them from prosecution.
jjohnwirtz
April 1, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Robin,
I would really appreciate it if you would stop assigning thoughts, motivations, and words to me (and, I suppose, by implication other supporters of survivors) that simple are NOT true.
Quote:”YOU TELL THEM IT WASN’T AS BAD AND TO STOP SNIVLING BECAUSE IT WASN’T A PRIEST! You should be ashamed of your self.”
If anything my experience with the with the sexual abuse scandal in the RCC has made me much more sensitive to and angry about child abuse in general.
John, I absolutely agree. SOL is the way to go. Here in Massachusetts we’ve got some legislation through (an extension of the time limit for reporting), but it wasn’t what we wanted (getting rid of SOL for child abuse claims period). And, there were many more people involved in the fight for SOL reform than clergy abuse survivors. It was really a broad-based effort and campaign.
April 1, 2008 at 10:17 pm
I am sorry that you think that I am assiging thoughts etc to you. I will except that you will also stop doing this very same thing! This must be why FR. Corapi says don’t try to talk with people who don’t agree with Church teachings I guess I will ceawl back in my hole and just try working on my own corrner of the world, God Bless soryy I am a loyal Catholic!
April 2, 2008 at 1:33 am
I agree with Robin that abuse exists in other churches, not just the Roman Church. A couple of years ago I read, in an Anglican publication, that several dioceses of the Anglican Church in Canada were on the verge of bankruptcy due to numerous law suits against the church for child abuse by clergy, mostly on Indian reservations. Keep in mind that the Anglican Church in North America is a highly “progressive” and liberal denmomination whose clergy can marry. Probably these incidents got less media attention because the liberal Anglican Church is somewhat protected by the media whereas the Catholic Church is constantly under fire by the media.
April 3, 2008 at 12:07 am
Robin:
My God! Are you really so hell-bent on protecting the image of Roman Catholicism that you actually believe what you wrote? You really believe you can get the attention of the current Curia/Magisterium/Papacy/Kingdom/Realm? More power to you if you think you can! There are organizations outside your vision who have been trying for more than 20 years to move the intentions of Vatican II forward so that the RCC could achieve an ecumenical collegiality across denominations, Christian and others, to recognize that God Infinite is bigger than any one philosophy or (yes even) religion can encompass, that it matters little what words are spoken, what meal is eaten, what fast days are celebrated, because that is just how big GOD is!
And you have the hubris to suggest that the current Vatican monarchy is going to listen to little ol’ you! Or even 1000; 10,000; 100,000; li’l ol’ yous? Not today. Not tomorrow. Not in your or my lifetime.
Did you ever think that the move the Holy Spirit is planning encompasses dismantling the current crime-ridden, incestuous, victimizing Vatican hierarchy in favor of something more akin to what Jesus is reported to have instituted at the Last Supper? Take off your blinders, open your mind, remove the beams from your own eyes before you try to help remove a splinter from your neighbor’s, and realize that if the Son of Man showed up corporeally today or tomorrow, He’d be pretty upset with what has transpired in His name, not just over the past two decades, but since his Ascension, and certainly since the Romans created the institutionalized Church, whose governance was based upon a supreme monarch exactly mimicking the Roman government at the time the deed was done.
Jesus’ realm, his teachings, his very life was based upon INCLUSION, not EXCLUSION, not EX-COMMUNICATION, not MISOGYNY, not POWER. Not PERSONAL WEALTH AND AGGRANDIZEMENT. Based upon how he acted and reacted as recorded in the accepted canon, he would never have victimized the first time, let alone again and again, the innocent, the childlike, the underprivileged, the powerless. And he would have had at the Vatican with all the strength and righteous anger he mustered against the period religious leaders of his time on Earth. And don’t accuse me of reading the mind of Jesus or God. Just read the New Testament, and you will see the parallels and the gravity of the situations he faced within his own contemporaries. Instead of turning a blind eye, he would have healed . . . both sides.
But until he can advise me differently, I can see little of the God-centered philosophy he preached in the RCC of today. And I am sorry for that. Sorrier than you will ever know or appreciate. But as for me I will no longer leave my brain at the door, leave my fate or the fate of my soul in the hands of hypocrites. I will search for God in places that leave me at peace, that stifle my anger, that heal my soul. And that isn’t the RCC. I would suggest that you are confusing lack of faith in the RCC with a lack of faith in God. At least for me, I can categorically state for the record that the RCC ex-communicated itself from me, not the other way around. If anything, I have a more profound belief in the Almighty than I did when I buried my head in the sand and tried to refuse to believe what my heart and conscience were telling me was so wrong with the RCC, the Vatican, the Episcopate. The RCC has abdicated its position as moral authority . . . period.
April 3, 2008 at 11:10 am
Jeepers talk about judging, check your eye! One thing I have noticed here no one is allowed to have a different opinion….. That is why I quoted Fr. Corapi a very Holy Priest, not to talk to people who diagree with the Church you won’t get any where pray for them instead. You must not have read before, I explained that I am a Convert and yes this is the True Church our Lord Jesus Christ started and the gates of HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL….. sorry but the schandles were some of the evil as are others groups trying to take it down!
April 3, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Robin:
More power to you. My wife is a convert, also, which has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. You have converted. You believe you can effect a change? Again, I say “Good luck.” I would like nothing better than to be informed that there can be an open dialog between the Holy See and us li’l ol’ lay folk, but I will not hold my breath.
As for the prevalence of child abuse, or abuse of any kind, you are correct that there have been and continue to be hundreds of cases of abuse reported all across this nation, and quite probably across the world, although child rights are better protected here than in most nations. Nothing that has been produced has indicated that there have been more abuse cases associated with Catholic clergy than in any other vocation/career/city/county/state. The issue is not that there have been abuses so much as the extraordinary effort put forth by the Holy See and the Bishops of the world to hide the facts from not just the public at large and secular authority, but the unsuspecting members of their own diocesan communities, and at such great personal cost to the victims and their supporters. Not only have the abuses been hidden for decades, but instead of even internally correcting the problem, many of the supervising bishops moved the offenders from one parish to another as soon as suspicions of abuse began to surface among the affected parish members. THAT IS THE GREAT SIN. If the presiding bishop had only taken the appropriate steps, including notifying the local secular authorities, to prevent further abuse BY THE SAME OFFENDERS TIME AFTER TIME, there would not be such a hue and cry about the RCC and its deaf and largely hypocritical leadership.
To be sure, not every collar-wearing priest, or habit-wearing nun or cloistered or non-cloistered religious person in the Roman Catholic Church has offended, or are even capable of such. Most of them, I suspect, are sympathetic to the victims and want to hold their superiors to account, not for the abuse, but for the coverups and facilitations of additional offenses that the complicit bishops, for whatever reason, perpetrated against members of their diocesan congregation. At least, I hope that is the case.
I could go on and on with numerous examples and some pretty solid scholarly investigations/analyses of what is going on with the Vatican now, but I don’t have the time and if you think it is hard to carry on a meaningful discussion with a person who questions or rejects the teachings of the RCC, try having a conversation with someone who is equally solidly bound to those same traditions and teachings. I used count myself in the latter category. I have since grown up.
My concern is not to dissuade you from your beliefs. I don’t want that responsibility. I would caution you, however, to look to the protection of your own soul and be a bit skeptical of anyone who says you should not try to communicate with others of differing opinions, beliefs and revelations. Anyone that tells you that doesn’t want you to learn to think for yourself, or test your beliefs against those of others.
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” Hamlet, by William Shakespeare, Act I, Scene V
Peace and all Good Things.
April 3, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Already been tested that is one of the reasons I converted. On why I will not discuss this issue with dissenters any more is they think that they are the only ones correct and they are smarter than any one else. By the way seen the numbers from different denominations and other professionals as in teachers,etc. guess what Catholic Clergy is on the bottom the list! They also were not the only ones to hide it. People just have to admitt that do not like the Catholic Church and should move on then and not try to bring it down. By the way it was never meant to be a democracy as our country is. Read the CCC and any thing else feom the teachings of the Magsiterium pray on it!
April 5, 2008 at 11:56 pm
You have made my point when you say that it was never intended to be a democracy. No truer words were ever spoken. Neither was Britain, France, nor any other first world remnant of the Roman empire, but hey, they managed to come along and institute forms of democracy for the secular side.
However, that is neither here nor there, because you will never convince me that maintaining the RCC status quo is devinely inspired, precisely because the RCC in its current form was created in the image and likeness of Imperial Rome, not the image and likeness of the original church as portrayed in the New Testament/Acts. And that, sir, is historical fact, not intuition. So, if built on a secular model, not a biblical, then it follows that changes can be made without offending the Almighty.
April 7, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Oh by the way I’ m a female! Some are not happy in the the Roman Catholic Church so why stay? Find a Church that you agree with, for me as a convert knowing history as Newman said I ceased being a Protestant! Some are still stuck in the 60’sI went to high school in the early 70’s so I can’t understand what all your anger and not wanting to listen to authority is all about. Know too many of you and I would say about 95% are so unhappy that I pray for you. As Mary teaches say the Rosary every day it will bring you to Jesus and his Church! Because some Priests are bad are we going to tear down the Church , maybe we should close schools, take children away from from families etc. no… let’s just stop child abuse every where not just in the Church as ALL CHILDREN are important!